Will Morocco Slow Reforms for Women?
GlobeTracker| Today’s NYTimes focused on Morocco as “a rare liberalizing, modernizing Islamic state, open to the West and a potential bridge to a calmer Middle East that can live in peace with Israel.”
This Western press publication suggests that democracy seems more demonstrative than real, as King Mohammed VI heads the warnings of radical Islamic fundamentalists to slow the pace of change.
Morocco’s senior officials are legitimately concerned about the pace of change and speak of keeping a proper balance between freedom and social cohesion.
At the same time that King Mohammed VI reaches out to disenfranchised Moroccans, living places not on his father’s radar, there’s a perception that he’s slowing down the pace of reform on women’s rights, for example. via NYTimes: Islamic Radicalism Sows Moroccan Reforms.
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Reader Comments (29)
This article shows one of the great problems with the 'liberal perfectionist' strand of feminism that your site endorses. All culturally specific contexts are removed and any demands of the Moroccan people are made subservient to your insistence that Muslim women's forms of feminism take an identical form to that taken by Western feminists.
Your short piece here shows a profound lack of knowledge of the role of the Islamist movement in Morocco as well as the realities of Moroccan politics. King Mohammad, is one of the most repressive rulers in the region and is despised by much of the population. It is in fact the Islamists in Morocco calling for elections and reforms, not the king. One of the most prominent members of the Islamist movement in Morocco is Nadia Yassine who has been convicted of crimes for speaking out against the oppression of the government.....but I guess when you read the new york times you dont learn things like that.
And why don't you speak anywhere about the real causes behind women's disenfranchisement such as severe economic disadvantage or the continued perception (reinforced by imperialistic western feminists such as yourself) that colonisation continues today and how this leads to the desire to use local women as a weapon against such colonisation? Focus on "taking your own foot off the necks" of Muslim women (and men) and we'll sort our own backyard out in a way acceptable to both our brothers and our sisters.
Alas, Muadh, Muslim women's (and men's) lives intersect with the rest of ours. Yours is one Muslim point of view. Many others demand response and action from Western economies, governments and individuals.
I try to stay away from generalizations at Anne of Carversville. I can't envision a case where lumping everyone into a single attitudinal basket achieves anything. That was my point in my original post on your blog.
You are angry and argue (correctly) that Muslims are stereotyped by many Americans. To suggest that Muslims be left alone to sort out their issues, without interference, is naive at best.
You, Muadh, forget that a large contingent of "your people" (readers, I apologize for writing this way -- I've never done so -- but the comment requires a response) want to kill "my people".
I stood with large numbers of Muslims in Jersey City on Sept. 11, 2001. Early in the day, we thought that as many as 50,000 people were in the buildings. An hour later, that would have been the case.
Many Muslims in my Jersey City neighborhood were horrified at what we watched, as plumes of smoke billowed into the air. The buildings were still standing then. But other Muslims -- all were men -- clapped openly. This is not to suggest that hijab-wearing Muslim women weren't thanking Allah, too, but they didn't do so openly.
Three terrorists were my neighbors. I walked by their mosque several days a week. In spite of being a "cultural imperialist", I feel a sense of kinship in multi-cultural neighborhoods.
I am totally committed to not stereotyping Muslims or being a "cultural imperialist".
If you read Anne of Carversville in any depth, you wold know that's not true. Slogans and chants come easy, when we want to rally the crowds. Look at the debacle of our own American town-meetings on health care.
Global thinkers of every religion and nationality believe that the world could just self-destruct in the coming years. The challenges are environmental in terms of water and the food supply. The focus isn't only religion.
While I acknowledge the wrongs of America and other "imperialist countries", your suggestion that we all just forget about each other is not a realistic strategy in today's world. It's a confined, textbook argument in a world that's coming unraveled.
This is my key point, and I will not get in a serious discussion that suggests we should become isolationists and adopt an "every wo(man) for herself" strategy, as you propose.
Based on my discussions with other Muslims, millions -- perhaps billions -- of suffering people don't agree with your recommendation. This fact strengthens my convictions to disagree with you openly.
On my end of this discussion, I am working hard to inform and raise the consciousness of my readers on international conditions and challenges. I don't insult them in the process, because I want their support and micro-loan money in the future. Changing viewpoints is a long and arduous struggle in the best of circumstances.
I also want -- and am headed for -- a very large global audience.
If the photos and website of the four global slums posted last night don't raise our consciousness and concerns about poverty and wealth in the world, I don't know what will. This is my route of ongoing self-expression -- to place intellectual issues in the middle of lifestyle ones. We are calm, rational, and proactive on this website. I have no interest in primarily intellectual debates that don't have any relevance in today's world. Isolationism is not in my vocab -- not because I'm a cultural imperialist. I'll hopefully be dead before the world self-destructs. I'll have my cushy New York life, no matter what. But I do care deeply about the enormous suffering in the world. And I don't apologize for being astounded over the things done to women in Muslim countries. I would be heartless if I turned away, as you recommend.And why do you blame the subhuman status of women in Muslim countries on me? Islam is responsible for the status of women in Muslim countries. And many Muslim women in Muslim countries are working hard to throw off the yoke of what are barbaric treatments of women.
I'm finally reading "Infidel", on my bookshelf for a couple years now. To a "guilt-ridden" liberal like myself, it's interesting to read Hirsi Ali's perspective on tribal conflicts that have existed since the dawn of 'civilization'.
Americans and Europeans are not solely responsible for creating this global mess, although our hands are plenty dirty.
I'm confident saying that your opinion is a minority one, even among educated Muslims, which the Granada writers clearly are.
Sincerely and with great respect for your culture and your right to a healthy debate on important global issues, Anne
Anne here, with another comment, after rereading Muadh's comments and my short post on reforms in Morocco.
I have no idea what "liberal perfectionist" is. Does it mean that I am opposed to genital mutilation and want the custom changed? Does it mean that I believe that husbands should not be allowed to starve their wives, if sex is withheld? I honestly have no idea what a "liberal perfectionist" is.
I consider the above fundamental rights for women.
I find Muadh's comments very similar to Magatte Wade's piece on Huff Po.
http://www.anneofcarversville.com/journal/2009/5/26/to-be-a-microfinance-do-gooder-and-turn-the-other-cheek-or-t.html
The Internet creates audiences for people to communicate with each other. I believe that it's liberating for people to go into cyberspace, especially on Huff Po, and generally unload on everyone. It must be a great feeling, but it accomplishes nothing.
Also, insults are a primary vehicle of non-intellectual argument and discussion.
In reading my short synopsis of questions raised in the NYTimes -- I took no position -- just raised the questions mentioned in the article. Muadh didn't use the comment opportunity to say: "Anne, Moroccan people hate the king. " We have no knowledge that this is true or not, just Muadh's assertion that they do hate the king. Her assertion proves nothing. FYI, the NYT wrote that in the north, they certainly hated the king's father.
Rather than use the Internet as an opportunity to educate and make their cases for another point of view, the desire is to insult me as the writer, when this post wasn't even a strong reflection of my own views. I read the global press constantly. I don't speak Arabic but I read as many English-speaking newspapers in the Middle East as possible. I understand they are 'suspect' as well to Muadh.
Bottom line, if we don't educate each other around topics, we get nowhere. The Granda blog folks are no different that the Israelis and the Palestinians. They will scream and yell and kill each other, until no one is left.
This is the "screamers" that Erica Jong writes about today, in the American health care debate, featured on Smart Sensuality.
Meanwhile, people who are trying to find real solutions forward will continue to do so. The Granada bloggers believe they can go it alone. They represent a branch of Islam very anti-West, and there just may not be a lot that we can accomplish together unfortunately.
I offer them the opportunity to make a reasoned, factual argument at Anne of Carversville anytime they wish to do so. I'm not spending my time defending being a "liberal perfectionist" when I don't even know what the term means -- along with enlightened feminism -- . And no -- I'm not looking it up, as I was told to do last night, over at Granada blog.
Plus, I've sworn off guilt. I'm frankly tired of having my buttons pushed. And I'm NOT a conservative Republican. Peace everyone. Anne
Anne here. You know me . . . of course I can't leave this subject of "liberal perfectionism" alone. In a quick review of the literature, it may be fair to call me a "liberal perfectionist". I've written in multiple places across the website that in my conversations with Muslim women, the concept of 'self' is just not part of our dialogue.
I was in a discussion yesterday with a talented African American man about raising money for his arts project. (I don't believe he's Muslim). I cited the pitfalls in our approach, from the perspective of the investors. He replied: "It's in God's hands anyway." This led to a conversation about self and preordained actions and the roles of the world's religions in encouraging entrepreneurial activities and thinking.
It's clear to me that some religions cultivate 'self' and obligations to others on earth while alive, more than others. I'm on record as saying that I believe that fundamentalism by nature -- Christian, Muslim or Jewish -- tends to regard women as "fodder" and not much more. Women are breeders, first and foremost. They exist to be monitored, chaperoned, and governed by men. I reject that thinking. If that makes me a "liberal perfectionist", then I accept the term.
I tend to gravitate towards those religions that promote 'self' and the obligations inherent in becoming our best 'self'.
It's also true that I believe in the concept of individual development. This is why I support micro-loans, because in making the woman an entrepreneur, her entire family benefits with her success. Children are educated and advance. Also, I reject the notion that advancement of self is a purely western idea.
Perhaps all our new research into brain scans will help us understand what parts of human nature are fundamental in their aspirations and which are cultural.
It's true that I don't support orthodoxies where people do exactly what they are told and we have no concerns for individuality. At the same time, I believe that America and some Western societies put too much emphasis on individual success.
In this respect, I'm probably more European in my thinking. I don't believe the s(he) who has the most toys wins or is the best person. I enjoy collective actions and teams who share the same objectives. I'm sure my rejection of purely Modern values comes through in the totality of my writing. Anne
Ok let's start with this statement:
"To suggest that Muslims be left alone to sort out their issues, without interference, is naive at best. "
Anne, you claim throughout your posts that you are committed to not being a cultural imperialist yet statements like this severely undermine such a claim. Despite your objections at being told to learn about the issues you came to our blog to discuss, it is absolutely necessary. If you learn about the role of liberal discourse (no small part of it the eurocentric feminism you espouse) in justifying colonialism you may understand what we're actually criticising you about. The same justifications were made to justify the continued occupation of Afghanistan by Bush and Uncle Obama.
The second statement I want to briefly address similarly shows your lack of historical context for the discussion:
"You, Muadh, forget that a large contingent of "your people" (readers, I apologize for writing this way -- I've never done so -- but the comment requires a response) want to kill "my people". "
Ok, so Al Qaeda just woke up one morning and decided let's bomb America because we hate freedom? No, the Muslim world has genuine grievances against America, while we may object to the attacks in the form of attacking civilians, you cannot possibly make a claim that the grievances are not real and that many people living under the thumb of US imperialism (both Muslims and others) have no right to oppose them.
Put simply, what we would like you to understand is that while you may have good intentions in seeking to help Muslim women, at the least learn about the role projects such as yours have had throughout the colonial and postcolonial eras and consider seriously the consequences aspects of your discourse may have on Muslim women in vulnerable situations.
Anne, You and people like you absolutely piss the shite out of me..I dont' give a fuck when you say "insults are a primary vehicle of non-intellectual argument and discussion", because you piss me right off with your fucking stupidity (you and the majority of those in the west who PRETEND to care)...Almost every single statement you said was false from so many ways, yet you continue to speak like you are so much higher and better than us morally somehow. Maybe because u are american and the rest of the world just isn't!?
I wanna say for one thing that i would absolutely LOVE to see some dead fucking americans around the world! And the large "contingent" of "our people" do that too, I know its not right to feel this way, but hey. You suffered 3000 deaths on 9 fucking 11 and you killed/maimed/orphaned/displaced MILLIONS OF PEOPLE...You fucking americans distroyed a country and a people. If there was ever a hope in iraq the US ILLEGAL OCCUPATION has destroyed it. Go and fucking read your self some stats about iraq before 2003 until now and see the status of the country and women.
You talk about morroco?? What the FUCK do you know about morroco??? The current king and his father are both saddist crimianls who are supported by the west AGAINST democracy and their own people!!!! This soo much more complicated than your stupid little mind can handle at this stage of ur pathetic education Anne!!! Everything is this region is connected to everything else!!! Morocco is a police state and big prison for its citizins, they all want to leave it despite how rich this country is. I guess this is the story of most of those other arab police states that are upheld only by the west's support to its criminal "leaders". The human indiginity suffered by these people all over the arab and muslim world is pushing towards violence and what the west likes to call "extremeisim". It is merely a symptom and not the cause. Yes our religioin islam teaches us to fight those who try to take our freedoms!!!
All this is for the illegal so called state of israel. Israel is only temperary, so long is there is one muslim in this world this illegal entity called israel will not exist! No, we are not going to exterminate the jews like the west did in germany, and like they exterminated us.
Anne, you are just a stupid little girl!!! This democracy makes people like you vote people like fucking bush into power. Democracy is its own enemy!!! You are, and people like you are indirectly responsible for millions of deaths and suffering right now...I WOULD LOOOOOVE TO SEE AMERICANS DEAD on THE STREETS OF IRAQ AND OTHER COUNTRIES YOU FUCKIGN STICK YOUR FUCKING NOSES IN!!!!
To my readers. I know that most websites would remove this comment, but I will leave it. As I've written multiple times on A of C, we all have blood on our hands, and that includes America.
War and self-interest have consumed humans since the dawn of human existence. This debate of trying to argue who is the worst country of all, the worst religion, etc, etc, etc is totally self-defeating.
This person is correct, regarding our motives in Iraq. I don't blame him or her for the resentment or furor. America's democratic process is filled with its own challenges.
I am trying to be a realist in a world that detests dialogue. Fundamentalists of every religion use slurs, screaming, profanity and hate because it's the easy way of not dealing with enormously complex world problems.
All of us take offense easily, but some more than others. We hang on every word, looking for the worst in each other, making it impossible not to insult each other. Once insulted, our interaction is a hostile, verbal free for all.
I did stop reading this post after the first 100 words or so. I really don't know what all is said, but the post will stand, as it is, without modification.
The fact that this article has caused all the furor astounds me. Perhaps I have offended Moroccans. I'm sorry, but this article is not intellectually perverted. I acknowledged, as did the NYT, that the king of Morocco is very unpopular in parts of the country. I am astonished that of everything I've written, this article is such a trigger. I am dumbfounded frankly.
Instead of writing a thoughtful comment, giving readers her or his point of view, educating us from their point of view, the focus is saying "How dare I write" this! I detest you, Anne!" I'm under the impression the posters are university-educated people.
The purpose of A of C International Women's Rights is to track international women's rights. Period.
If women are losing rights again in Morocco or Afghanistan, I WILL report that fact, and I don't need to write an encyclopedia of the history of the world to do so -- articulating why people behave the way they do.
The facts speak for themselves. If women are afraid to come out of their homes and vote, do not tell me that women's rights are being honored in Afghanistan and the problem is that, as a Western feminist, I don't understand the culture.
What right do YOU have to speak for Afghan women or Moroccan women? Let's stop talking only about Western feminists and American women.
What is YOUR right to say that people shouldn't be concerned about the women of Afghanistan (which is where this all began), that they should be 'left alone'. Many women in Afghanistan are begging international women not to leave them. Who makes you the legislators of 'correct feminism?'
As always, women are being USED for a purpose. Women are ALWAYS the pawns in history, as they are pawns in the Congo today.
The American 'feminists' in Afghanistan -- at least the articulate ones who come up in Google -- have been conservative Republicans. The Cheney crowd is much more committed around the world than the secularists. Shame on me for letting this happen. I did nothing for Afghan women after 2001.
I've already commented many times that secular American women have been absent from the global debate on women's rights. We're too busy painting our toenails red or worrying about body image.
Last week, both the NYTimes and TIME wrote features about beleagured American African American women having "bad hair" days. They want to wear afros. I say 'let them do it", for heaven's sake. I welcomed this hairdo 40 years ago, and I can't believe we're still talking about it.
Just DO IT! Have the guts to wear your hair in America as you wish. You will not lose your tenure at Princeton, dear professor.
Their concern is hair; mine is genital mutiliation. This is the reality of our women's world today. I can't help it.
Brain scans show us that 65% of people won't even process a new idea or another person's point of view.
If I am a naive woman, it's in not understanding that human minds are LOCKED UP. Just as women's vaginas are sewed up, and their clitoris cut off, our minds are shut down, because real thinking is difficult and challenging.
My views on female sexuality are clear and articulate. They were confirmed yesterday when my own sensual date erotica was called "profoundly disturbing" over at the Granada blog. I'm focused on honour killings and genital mutilation in her part of the word, and she's focused on my mild erotica on A of C in America.
I said to myself: "Wow, however can we bridge this divide?" Eating a date is "profoundly disturbing" to this person. But the more I've read, I understand just how deep this disgust for female sexuality goes in men and in women.
This fear of men losing their minds being even near a woman's body has kept women in cages since Lilith left the Garden of Eden (just another religious metaphor, my readers). And women take on this guilt, living with it every day of their lives.
Patriarchal institutions don't want us to think or ask questions. From what I'm reading, there's no room for the concept of "self" in many parts of the world. I'm trying to better understand this concept internationally.
From Stalin to Mao to Saudi Arabia, I don't see "self" or the individual as mattering in any way. Humans are cogs in the machine of existence. We exist until we die, under this thinking. The payoff for surrender is heaven.
American democracy and European governments are also very imperfect. But they do encourage us to think and to be a "self".
Human beings are capable of enormous achievement and communal progress, when we think and don't only run on autopilot. I believe this is my "liberal perfectionism" that our posters detest about me. I admit that I care about "self".
I worked on the ground in many countries for 10 years, not sitting in some fancy hotel (which I did stay in) but in the fire pits with glass blowers, in factories, with weavers and all the other laborers of the world.
If you think my date erotica is disturbing, imagine me standing over a hot fire furnace, sweat dripping off my body, communicating through a translator to the Taiwanese glass blower, as the glass is coming out of the pit -- "Yes, yes. You can do it. This is better."
I don't know what his wages were, but I can honestly say that I paid more for that Taiwanese glass bottle than anyone had ever paid. And I sought excellence from him and his company. Over the course of time, we achieved excellence together.
The glass was not cloudy and the blowing shape had become a true piece of art.
One day, back in the United States, I put this man's bottle on a table, next to the one produced in Europe at 100 times the price. Prior to this moment, the word was that only "crap" glass came out of Taiwan.
"Pick the French bottle", I challenged our Chairman, who is a known expert in the finest things in life -- especially crystal. He chose the bottle produced by the dirty, hot sweaty, smelly man and me -- the equally dirty, "liberal perfectionist" Anne -- in Taiwan, on a day when the temp was over 100-degrees and the humidity about 95%. That's before we went before the fire pits.
It was one of the proudest moment in my career, watching my Chairman pick our bottle.
My friend Max Kim will tell you that I remain legendary in South Korea, because I paid more money for fabric than anyone ever. I paid $2.05 a yard, not $1.65. But when we were finished, together we had changed the quality of fabric manufacturing in South Korea. It was now indistinguishable from the more expensive Japanese fabric, in most cases.
Max says: "Nobody ever believed in us as you did. You thought we could do it, and you never gave up. We were mad at you some days, but we loved you with all our hearts, because you didn't treat us like low-class, stupid people. You saw our talent."
So you can call me a stupid woman if you like, but I know that working together, pursuing an increased standard of living in people's lives, is the only hope for our global salvation.
Without dialogue and working together, I believe the world self-destructs in the next 50 years or so. Reading these comments, I understand that we will go nuclear at some point. I'm not one of those Christian fundamentalists who welcomes Armageddon. We have large numbers of Christians praying for nuclear war. They absolutely want the bomb to go off and they engage aggressively in trying to launch Armageddon.
And yes, we can thank America for inventing the bomb to destroy us all and dropping it on Japan, although we were not alone in working on nuclear warfare. It's my understanding that the bomb was more a statement to Russia than a necessity in the act of warfare.
As I wrote yesterday, the global challenges focus on far more than politics. Our new Smarty Pants section will focus on philanthropists like Shakira, Angelina Jolie, Muhammad Yunus and Bill Gates, who are committed to measurable results in their activism.
I detest cheap rhetoric. I always have. I'm a doer, not an intellectual. I'm a builder, not a destroyer.
I will not comment much more on this thread, but I will leave the insults, as a learning tool for everyone who reads the article. I am committed to showcases opposing ideas at A of C.
On my end, I have reached out to female ministers and they have responded positively. I can't come up with any Catholic women priests or female Muslim imams. I'm certain that I can find a few women rabbis. In most cases, their views will be more "conservative" than mine but still secular. There will be no fundamentalism or orthodoxy on this website, in terms of our voice.
You will see and read an expansion of multiple personalities on A of C in the coming months. Anne of Carversville is growing at a staggering pace -- about 200-300% a month. We will hopefully be going to web TV in an exciting new project.
Investors are not asking me to dumb down or calm down my point of view, which I refuse to do.
If you are a writer with an articulate, secular, global viewpoint -- preferably not American -- please contact me in the masthead box.
I should also say that although they are about 20-30% of our readers, men have given me the strength and conviction to go forward at A of C. It is the men who rally me in comments, emails and on other social networking websites. My expressed support from women is minimal, but of course, you support me with your reading.
Without men, I might have given up about a year ago. So secular men from any country including US, truly committed to women's rights, are welcome to write for A of C. I would really love that.
I am pleased to say that today will be the biggest single day at Anne of Carversville, in terms of our traffic -- and not because everyone is reading this Morocco article. It's 2% of the page views.
I would like to believe that the response is driven by an appreciation of our pursuit of excellence and my sincere attempt to make a difference in the world.
My goal is to get all the red toe nail ladies on the road to fighting for the rights we deserve after all these centuries. I will do that, not browbeating them, but with milk and honey -- a little date erotica on occasion.
Peace to all, including nayyaach el amreekan
Anne
Anne here. I wish to clarify something I wrote this morning about support from men. That is all true.
Since the Lubna Ahmed Hussein case, I have also received strong support from women in Europe and the Middle East. It is American women who have not offered personal support, although I understand that they are regular readers.
I also want to say that I just checked our traffic stats. To my critics who call me "stupid", the average time spent on Anne of Carversville is holding at 60 minutes, in and out of our articles. That result is almost unachievable on the Internet. It tells me that I am far from alone in trying to make meaning of the world around us.
My writing, the stories we feature and our links are first rate. Your average stay on the website confirms this fact.
I would also like to thank England and Italy specifically for now being 5% each of our traffic. Brazil is also registering loud and clear.
30% of our traffic is dispersed from countries all over the world, which is also unusual. Typically India will be 8% or Kenya registers very high, because that country identifies with your content.
Anne of Carversville is for intellectual carpetbaggers all over the world. We are reaching a truly diverse and global audience of thinking people in each country.
We will build this Internet house page by page, as a testament to global intellect and human aspiration, universal spiritual values that transcend organized religion, and to a calm and reasoned voice of femininity.
I opened this international women's rights channel in honor of Lubna Hussein and all the people trying to keep our world glued together under insanity, greed, patriarchal values and institutions, fundamentalism in any religion, and heartless humanity, wherever it resides.
Women are marching on the streets of Khartoum, saying no more whipping. Lubna will be in court on Monday, Sept. 7. Her courage must inspire us all.to move forward together. Anne
My credibility comes from having lived in a war zone as a child and having seen and endured the kind of suffering which you will NEVER EVER understand. Now I bring a child into this world, a daughter and the war has not ended and the country is a hundres of times worst off!!! The power, gravity and expereince of my message compluses me to throgh political correctness out the window. I dont' speak on behalf of those who live in the safety and frivolous abundance of the west, I speak on behalf of myself and those are in pain! And since you are not going to delete my writing, I must say that: Your fucking stupidity and weakn yet incredibly incohesive reason and reply continues to amaze me Anne!!! There is just a very loooong list of things you got wrong factually in the above articles, but more than that you furhter displayed to me how narrow minded and extremist you are, your self! There is no fundemental difference in the core of the way of thinking between you and the "extremeists" you talk about. Let's take the taliban for instance, you both think you are so self ritous and have absolutely no doubt in your message in belief, even though you both think you have given other ideas a good thought but chose to stick with what you believe in now. You both mistankely Think that you are logical and listen to other points of view and your point of view is the right one... You, Anne, like Taliban will not listen to any other voice of reason or logic no matter how logical or reasonable it might be, because you think you represent the climax epic of human form and intellectual achievement!! This is the true definition of extremism. But your lot get to call them extremists when it suits you because your govt needs an enemy, so the muslims are just perfect for this. Now the Taliban are a revolutionary peoples who have suffered an unimaginable by your kind sufferings and for too long, so I have sympathy for them. But I dont' have any sypathy for your stupidity. For each "human being" not only woman the taliban have caused pain to, the U.S single handedly have caused the same or multiple times more and thousands more HUMAN beings (not only women)...
I am just sitting here thinking which of your stupidly stupid points should I answer first? But that will take long and precious time and I dont' get paid for this as I still have to make a living for my family!!! This is not my full time job! Like it is yours looks like. So, I will just do what I do, and tell my mind.
Emmersed in your own self ritous and deafened by listening to your own"self" you fail to see many reall logical and reasonble conclusions. I won't mention all but will talk about only the women issues since you are a "feminist" and can't see the bigger picture.
First of all, the idea of feminisim is old, outdated and fucking ridiculous at best. When and where ever women have been mistreated in mass, and that's what you champion against Anne, I am not talking about a rogue incident here or there, we are talking about something which happens in daily life. When ever this occurs at the same time many other rights, that are equally or much more grave are trespassed and trampled upon. At least I am in the muslim world, not in historical europe. Afghanistan/Iraq is the favourite topic, so let's talk about that. Women are treated badly there, yes, I agree, but where you stupidity has no end in sight is when you fail to see how badly women/elderly/children/young men/old men/minories/the ill/the diseased/the handicapped etc...etc...etc.....are suffering at the same time.
You sick extremist mind fails to see how when there no water/electiciy/food/education/clean shelter/HOPE!!! and Deaths of those close to you ie children/parents/brothers/sissters etc...etc...etc...how that really affect the population in general not only women. So why do you only want to champion women's rights? What about the rest??? You keep self ritously talking about sexual mutilation and honor killing for women, I mean that when you said you were dumb founded by my reply, I instantly was assured that's because you ARE dumb???? What the FUCKKK??? How often does that happen do you think?? Honor killing...1 in 10?? 1 in a 100? a 1000? 10,000??? 100,000??? More???? There are no records of these countries thanks to the U.S for that. But next door, which has a similar population and culture has over 172 MILLION people with estimated 10 so called honor killings!!!!! As bad as this is, there are tens of thousands of children under the age of five who die yearly as a direct result of malnourishment and easily treatable disiease like malaria while in the west your "sisters" spend in the TENS OF BILLIONS of dollars on fashion and cosmetics alone!!!! PORN is one of the biggest industries in the west. So why don't u save ur sisters from that??? They allow it because it "contributes to the economy"??? These malnourished uneducated suffering kids (boys and girls) will grow up to be abusive towards themselves, thier children, thier societies and thier men/women!! I think you get the idea, or I should say I really hope you do but doubt it!
Now why does all this happen???? Why don't the PEOPLE RISE and take matters into thier own hands to make thier OWN FUTURES better??? Why?? Because they are stupid? No, because they are not american?? Certainly NOT! Are they much behind in the "evolutionary ladder"??? Not that either...Can you guess??? Can your frivolous self ritous and inexpereinced mind comprehend?? That the U.S govt created all the millitias, they armed them, gave them money, lied to the whole world abou that face on...The taliban dont' control any of the drugs in there? They banned, this comes not from your fucking fox and the rest of murdoch's news but rather from PEOPLE on the ground who have been there, seen it and suffered both before and after the russians, the U.S and they'll be there after the U.S leaves with its tail between it's legs. the US armed our enemies and THEY PUT THEM IN POWER. There is not a faction or a millitia in Iraq or Afghanistan that is not there directly becuase the americans WANT THEM TO BE THERE!!!!
I will talk in more simple easy to understand words so you can follow, because you didn't understand last time: If you want the women's situation to better, then the whole society must fixed. Not only one aspect of one issue of one gender...That's why I said to you before that everything is connected to everything how complex it was and pointed out ur stupidity.
What I think you ought to be doing is to LEAVE MUSLIM WOMAN ALONE!!! YOU ARE NOT APPRECIATED, WANTED OR WELCOMED IN OUR LANDS. In Muslim lands. WE HATE YOU, DON'T YOU GET IT, LEAVE US THE FUCK ALONE!!??? We dont' want to your feminist secular liberal democratic or any other ideas coming from your end.
You said you women are used as pawns. YOU, Anna, and are being used as a pawn, to come and invade our countries from which ever angle there is, even through feminisim...
Just worry about your own women and how they are subucated and reduced to marketing tools on TV and other media. Teach your women to respect them selves and not get pregnant out side of marriage with out a proper father figure for thier children.
You said what gives me the right to speak on behalf of muslim women in this region. I say what the FUCK GIVES YOUUU the right????? I am from here, my fathers and mothers sisters and brothers, and children are from here. That gives me the right!!!! You have the nerve and the audacity to ask me about rights???
We will not agree on much here Anne, but we may agree on this, our muslim lands are not your lands, and our people are not your people.Leave us alone and dont' come looking for us.
You mentioned Lubna hussein, there are thousands of other women voices inside sudan who oppose what she has done, and oppose what she stands for what ever it is. And if they agree they will say it and they will deal with it them selves ITS NON OF YOUR FUCKING BUSIENSS. If you dont' get it, you will continue to be hunted like fucking dogs in our lands.
We look after our women and mothers and daughters and wives much better than your cheating men do. You have to learn from us.
I do say how dare you write about a sujbect from your white fucking high horse and you dont' know anything about it. No I correct my self, you know small part of the truth and you think you got it down very well, but you havn't and that is more dangerous that if you had full truth.
Down here is life and death and not some fucking website business, or your aspiring to give some ridiculous meaning to your pathetic, empty and meaning less life by trying to be a self ritous socilite or what ever the fuck you aspire to be. Boasting about how many people come to your website and how long they stay on it...Or some glass bottle you made in taiwan??? You should be ashemed of your self for thinking you are THAT good !!!! Some freak who chose your chinese glass bottle over some other "european" bottle??? For fuck sake give me a break!!!! Boasting about how good you were to these people by not thinking they are lower class than you?? Just by saying it you psycologically prove that you thought it??? You think you are so highly advanced because you read some article about brain scans??? How fucking incredibly stupid and dull are you???
If you really want to help women in this region, dn't come near us, and just campaign for justice to be done to us, and your governents not to mess with our people and support our criminal leaders to prision us and practise all an imaginable agressions aginst us, or those who want to help thier own societies.
fuck you and fuck your last comment about peace to all including me!!! If you come to my house as a guest and I invite you in, is different story if you force your self on me and my family, then you are an agressor and have no exccuse..
I wrote this email and didn't check my spelling or otherwise...
To readers, I have read this post from Nayyaach el Amreekan. It, too, will stand. Having read the entire message, I will think about his points over the weekend.
I prefer that readers digest his arguments this time, without an immediate response from me.
I may take this conversation -- or at least the key points -- into my journal, where it will have much greater exposure. Given the volatility of the conversation and abundance of profanity, I don't know if I want to do that.
My own mother said "fuck" every other word in my childhood -- calling me a "fucking asshole" almost every day, and I've tried to put that vocabulary out of my adult life, wherever possible.
I left my last relationship because this is how my partner spoke to me. He, too, called me fucking stupid, which I am not. I never thought I would subject myself to these words again, but I consider this exchange a learning experience of some kind.
The words actually don't bother me at this point. I don't believe that women should tolerate such abusive language, but then many women use it, too, especially on children. Women become the oppressors of other women, especially as mothers and mothers-in-laws.
Because we have so many Muslim women reading this channel, do not think that my allowing myself to be called "fucking stupid" reflects my belief that it is OK to speak to any human being this way. I allow it only because of the writer's desire to make his points, and I want him to communicate.
In modern culture in New York, often every other word is "fuck" on the street corner -- Hey man, what the fuck's going on with that fucking asshole Gino. That's just fuckin' crazy" etc. etc. etc. Profanity is global, as we all know.
I will definitely promote this conversation within Beyond the Veil, so that more people can read the key points of Nayyaach el Amreekan's thinking, within the context of international women's rights.
He is correct that we don't agree on many things, but there is also much that he wrote that I agree is true.
I will respond after Lubna goes to court on Monday. I will also have the men members of Lubna's team that I work with, read him points and advise me in my response. They are all Muslim men and live in the Middle East in different countries. I realize that they may share a different political view from the writer's -- I know they don't support the Taliban -- but they are not rich oil barons either. They are middle class professionals, clerks, students.
Peace, Anne
Anne, you said: "Because we have so many Muslim women reading this channel, do not think that my allowing myself to be called "fucking stupid" reflects my belief that it is OK to speak to any human being this way". Why did you mention: Because we have msulim women reading.....??? Are you primerily appealing to "muslim" women and have set your self up as a "role model" for them teaching them what's okay and what's not?? Or is there another reason?
You said: "I allow it only because of the writer's desire to make his points, and I want him to communicate"
That's real big and maute of you, ahy? " I want "him" to communicate"...Yea, that's real big and mature. I like that!..You're so proud of ur self aren't you?? I can just see right through you Anne!...You know, I think ur a victim ur self, of abuse, from both your mother as you mentioned and your ex-partner or husband. I do have a little sympathy for you from this way...I think those experiences made you where you are now, a self ritous "feminist" who's just craving get back at her mother/ex-partner and that is the only way you know how!...I think your interest in muslim women is FOR YOU, It's a weak psychological need, a VOID that you need to fill within your diseased soul. Which is okay, everyone in this world has problems I guess, even new yorkers! After all it was not ur fault that you had those expereinces, but it clearly affected you dramatically.
You said: "In modern culture in New York, often every other word is "fuck"......". Are you implying that other cultures are not "modern" like you put it? Somehow inferior and backwards??? I saw a video on youtube a few months ago, of a guy lying in the street dying after being bashed and robbed by some thugs for approximately half an hour and "new yorkes" were just passing by, no one would stop and help him!!!! This is ur modern culture! I have seen been involoved in incidents where a man would stand against the american backed government regime's men to pretoect another man which he did not know but only felt this man needed help and was alone! Guess what they did to him? They broke this young man's legs' right there infront of us, put him in a car boot and took him away!!! This is more "modern" I think!
You said: "I will also have the men members of Lubna's team that I work with, read his points and advise me in my response". They are all Muslim men and live in the Middle East in different countries. I realize that they may share a different political view from the writer's "--
Why do you get them to help you??? Are you using "males" to speak to anthoer "male" like myself because females can't get thier point across?? If that's what you believe I dont' agree with you. I think femals are just as capable of making a great point and to no matter who/when and where it maybe!
You said: "I know they don't support the Taliban -- but they are not rich oil barons either. They are middle class professionals, clerks, students"
Anne, I don't support the Taliban either and not many at all in the muslim/arab region support them, but I said I have sympathy for them. For the reasons I stated before, and I said they were a revolutionary peple who have never been occupied by anyone before...The very nature of revolutions is that it instinctively starts high and strong to survive the rapid change, but then it calms down and the voices of reason logic and progress start coming. In the taliban case, they didn't have a period of peace (thanks entirely to the US through supporting/funding/arming and some cases instructing the many criminal millitias in the country who also happen to control the drug trade and not the taliban!) so this could happen, but this is too complicated for you isn't it? Are you gonna ask the "male" members of Lubna's "team" who live in the middle east and are muslim to answer that for you too???! Why don't you send them feminisim books/pay them and they could do your work for you. I am sure the CIA would love to covertly fund this project. So far you are doing for free (they are not paying you are they??)..Your a pawn Anna you are doing thier bidding for them. the US wants to bring down this country Sudan. It's the biggest arab country, its extremely rich with oil and other minirals and worst of all is that they are not making an head with its government because its an islamically inclined governemnt. So now they start working on the country from the inside, create wars, divide the country. The (US govt) started the whole rebellion in the south and they supported garang and even sent weapon's ships from saudi arabia to him, Garang killed alot of his people who opposed him and the rebelion caused many deaths and instability in the country which in turn makes them take an even harder line!, and they will continue to undermine using pawns like you Anne. All these information and much more are all facts, but unfortunately you will have to dig a little deeper to find it in your murdoch dominated english speaking media from your new york manhattan apartment!.
In any case, I have to tell you Anne, Sudan is really one of the places that people like you have nothing to offer them. Sudan is one of the most progressive and independent arab/muslim contries. There men and women are so civilised that the US might not catch up with them for another probably 150 years. Their women are inteligient, proud and very hard working and constructive members of the society. Don't worry, they are powerful enough to make the whole world hear them if they want to, the can certainly change the course of the country, there are countless examples one of which died last year and the president of Sudan him self was the first to walk in front of her funeral procession her name is :Sara Al Mahdi, She was an oxford university educated woman and a great political leader, a wife a party leader in the opposition government and before all she was a great mother who gave the world very well rounded and successful children who will say her name and pray for her for three more generation to come! We have plenty of good examples for our women in Sudan, we dont' want your backward and empty liberal feminist blushit bullshit bullshit ideas....All we need is for you to leave us the fuck alone. I dont' know how much clearer I can make this
I did not check my spelling!
As I said, I will not speak on this subject until after Tuesday, except to say that Anne of Carversville IS my website. I pay for it and the labor in it is mine. That will change in the coming months, but presently it is mine and Feanne's. It is my decision what is said here versus what is expunged.
I do not believe that very many women in the world would allow themselves to be publicly insulted in this way. If it sounds high and mighty to clarify that I normally wouldn't allow myself to be publicly insulted in this way, but I am inviting communication. I am high and mighty, then.
It takes VERY little for you to take offense, which is my point about why men will just blow up the world.
Our writer wouldn't be the first man to say that I am arrogant. Others love me for it. They, too, are men -- and men from Sudan.
In fact, now that I understand we are talking about Sudan, my own perspective has changed a bit here. Because my email box is FULL of messages from Sudanese women and men who have thanked me profusely for my writing. It is FULL of messages from both sexes saying, whatever happens, please do not stop writing about Sudan. They obviously agree with Lubna, not the commentator.
Back to why I stopped by here, before I saw the comment:
Lubna Hussen has sent a message to the world via The Guardian: I believe that her words are appropriate in this string of comments:
"When I think of my trial, I pray that my daughters will never live in fear of these "police of security of society". We will only be secure once the police protect us and these laws are repealed. I also pray that the next generation will see we had the courage to fight for their future before it was too late. We need Arab, African, American and European leaders to stand with us and help us make sure that the next chapter of our history is less bloody and brutal than the last. This will require conviction and boldness from their side. I hope they will display the qualities of those Sudanese men and women I most admire."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/sep/04/sudan-woman-trousers-trial
Not having read the above post -- except to see the words "Sudan', Oxford and pawn and a comment about my interest in Muslim women, it seems that we have two different views about both the causes of the problems and the solution. I have been reading about the history of Sudan and will continue to do so. Of course, I will never be 1/1000 as informed as Lubna or our writer.
I readily admit that I sympathize with Muslim women, because I, too, have been abused. I DO understand the horrors of their situation. In another incident, I know what it is to have organized religion tell me that I am basically a slut, after a man molested me as a young woman sleeping next to his daughter. I am asleep in bed with his six-year-old daughter and he is on top of me.
How disgusting is that! And yet my church didn't believe me, until this perverted man molested more women and one finally ran him out of town. The church and my parents told me this was MY fault. I'm realing "Infidel". Muslim women are told they are nothing but sexual temptation to men all the time.
Muslim women tell me they are sexual temptation, and that's why modern women try to be as modest as possible.
I have also had police temporarily arrest me -- yes, here in America -- because they did not like my clothes. What they didn't like was that my roommate and I were doing volunteer work in Harlem, but that's another subject. I KNOW what it is to have policemen inspect my clothing.
I TOTALLY IDENTIFY WITH LUBNA AHMED HUSSEIN and what can and does happen to women everywhere in the world. This is why I have taken action. You are totally correct sir, in your assertion that I identify with Muslim women because of my experiences.
You thought this was an academic conversation with some stupid blond American woman??? It's not.
My stories are not as bad for certain. But they are parallel. As I wrote the other day, women are fodder everywhere in the world. High class and low class. To large numbers of men, we are in need of being controlled, subjugated, and must ask permission to leave the house. We have no minds nor morals.
We can't function without men monitoring our behavior. This is the situation in your country and I am not responsible for your Muslim men arresting Lubna Hussein. Perhaps you are. What have you done to help Lubna?
This is why I believe that feminism transcends economics and politics. MEN always convince women that the battle is economic. It's not, which is not to suggest that poverty doesn't make men even more aggressive towards women. Men must demonstrate their masculinity, so they beat up women.
The battle is for women to control their own selves. This need is international and transcends all other isms. Once a woman is 'free', she can choose her religion, her clothing and her husband. None of those options exist in many countries of the world. And I also believe that were women have responsibility, peace and prosperity have a better chance.
And I have hundreds of Sudanese men who agree with me and would never speak to me as you do. They might disagree with me, but they would never show your disrespect. I'm sure your Oxford-educated mother would be very proud of you. Anne
Anne, even though I disagree with Nayyach about his language and tone, I have to agree with him that you keep missing the point and your justifications are quite weak and fail to answer the points adequately
Just because you're getting messages from women (and men) doesn't mean that there is a clear cut right and wrong and that you're somehow single handedly championing the right side. To be honest I find it a bit strange to jail a woman just for wearing Jeans but this is an internal Sudani issue, and just like a number of otherwise insignificant incidents (the killing of newborns in Kuwait in 1991, Elian Gonzales, Ayan Hirsi Megan etc... ) This incident has been chosen as a stage for something larger- I don't know what. Because (and especially in Sudan) there are a lot of extremely horrible things happening and that were happening in all peoples of Sudan for the last 60 years. Why has this incident suddenly become so important that it took center stage ?
You also keep mentioning Infidel as a representative definitive truth about all Islam and all muslim women around the world, but the fact is this book tells of ONE person's point of view, a person who is a known fabricator of facts. THE TRUTH is that modesty is required for both men and women, men and women are both the source of temptation for each other, men and women both have to guard their modesty, men and women both have to wear hijab, only because of the obvious anatomical differences the terms of hijab are different. I would recommend that you peel yourself away from this Infidel rubbish book and read something else such as "Western Representations of Muslim Women by Mohja Kahf" or "Islam: The Empowering of Women, by Aisha Bewley"
You said "We can't function without men monitoring our behavior. This is the situation in your country and I am not responsible for your Muslim men arresting Lubna Hussein. Perhaps you are. What have you done to help Lubna?"
This, I have to say, is part of the reason why Nayyach keeps going off (though I disagree with this). This is rubbish again as you are making an absolute statement about Muslim men's attitude towards Muslim women.. As in, the attitude of men towards women for 1.6 Billion people, in 27 countries around the world.
Not putting into account that some of these countries are war zones, that some of these countries are extremely unsafe due to political realities and a woman walking alone is VERY likely to be kidnapped, killed or worse. AND again there is ALOT that all of us do to help the less able in the third world, so to accuse anyone of not doing enough is a bit, no, is quite arrogant of you.
I find it amusing that you keep blaming nayyach's outbursts, insults or criticisms of you on his sex and ethnicity, like if he was a woman he would speak more eloquently, and if he wasn't an arab he would not be aggressive in his tone or the choice of words he uses. It's as if the reaction has nothing at all to do with your selective ignorance of the background of the many issues at hand.
I am sorry that you had to go through bad experiences, there is a lot of evil in this world and I can't say I know how they feel but I feel for them. This is not the place for you to bring your experiences because they pose no relevance to this particular topic.
peace
I have nothing to say to Sahar. I actually have no interest in "saving you". Never did. Not to worry. And actually, I've decided to delete your comment. It's not a dialogue but a personal attack on me and the fact that I am willing to discuss 'the personal' in public. My willingness to acknowledge that my actions aren't only theoretical, but grounded in experiences shared by many women, is valued by many people.
Not you. That's great.
*****
With regard to Brother FA, I find your comments refreshingly lucid actually. I have no issue with anything that you've said.
In reading Infidel, which I believe I referenced twice, I was surprised about how directly her descriptions of being told how disgusting her body is and how men cannot handle themselves around a woman's physicality parallel the multiple (6-8) conversations I had on this subject with women privately, in the earlier burqa conversation from July.
These very intelligent, niqab-wearing women stressed that they had to be modest, so as not to "tempt men". I will say no more about our conversations, because I sense that the comments section of this article is not a place for constructive dialogue of any kind, so I'll stop there.
The comments in Infidel are exact replicas of the comments these women shared with me in a positive way. I have no value judgment -- just an observation from their comments that men cannot be trusted and women must not tempt them. The responsibility falls to the woman to cover herself, because men cannot control their urges.
I don't believe this about men generally or Muslim men specifically, in spite of my personal experiences with abusive men and women. I believe that men and women can be trusted not to rip each other's clothes off and carry-on this way all over the world, every day, without a morals police.
It's Muslim women who tell me that men cannot control themselves, not me. The scenario is centuries old and transcends religion. FYI, I also admit that I gasped, when I read about sewing up vaginas in 'Infidel'. I've read the articles about genital multilation, but never a first-hand graphic telling.
Talking to women who readily embrace wearing niqab in America, they say that they do not want to be exposed to men in any physical way. The coverage allows them not to worry about being a temptation. I understand that within this mindset, the extreme modesty is liberating.
I have no opinion; I'm only quoting them. I believe it's quasi dysfunctional in America, but otherwise I have no opinion. I've asked the women if they believe they should wear niqab to a board meeting at General Electric, and they haven't answered. I asked them if they envisioned a Muslim woman being Valerie Jarrett, descending Air Force One, wearing niqab, and they didn't answer that question either.
Theoretically, these Muslim women demand that America's business culture change to accommodate their religious beliefs about human bodies, in the name of religion. And yet America is a government and society which respects religions but does not want a government run by religious figures. That is our choice.
In spite of my personal experiences, I have a very positive relationship with many men. I do not regard them as beings who cannot control their sexuality. I do work aggressively around the idea that women should not feel guilty about being sensual creatures. I believe that sensuality is beautiful and I refuse to allow others to degrade female physicality.
Muslim women can taunt me about my date erotica being "profoundly disturbing", but in reverse they just confirm what is said about them in 'Infidel'. The mere suggestion of sensuality makes women squirm because they feel decadent and dirty. I do not believe that women are either. I believe that we are gorgeous creatures.
The body of my writing confirms a strong concern and sympathy that many of our American and Western marketing and advertising is offensive to other cultures. Do I want the men in the morals squad from Sudan legislating our advertising? No. Do I wish we were more discreet? Yes.
I will add another personal experience to this discussion. It happened in Park Slope Brooklyn two weeks ago. I spent the weekend with my friend there, and we were headed to the subway in the morning, to return to Manhattan.
I was wearing a halter dress, leaving my shoulders bare. The fabric was a jersey knit, cut on the bias and covered my knees. The skirt was loose and flowing. I am not a busty woman and there was no cleavage at all. The day was a 90-degree day and generally women on the streets of Brooklyn were in sleeveless dresses or shirts.
A Muslim man was standing at the top of the stairway to the subway, handing out free newspapers. I said "no thanks". My friend took the paper. The man shouted to us, as we descended the stairs: "You better leave your girlfriend with me for a few days. I think she needs to spend time in the mosque where she learns to dress properly."
Do I take Muslim fundamentalism seriously as a threat to women in America? Yes, I do.
I don't think I am blaming Nayyach's comments on his sex or ethnicity. I'll read my statements again in the morning, but I don't feel that way because I've never been one to stereotype people generally -- except for the Cheney crowd. And I do stereotype fundamentalists generally, mostly because I find them enormously hypocritical. The morals squad typically are the biggest users of porn in the universe. These statistics are well documented, on computer ip addresses coming out of different parts of the world.
Many of the 43,000 women in Sudan arrested last year regarding the clothes were told to give sex to the very men who arrested them. Perhaps some people believe that 43,000 women in Khartoum are liars. I do no.t
I am saying that I reject Nayyach's argument that oppression of women is only lodged in economics and the fault of the West. I believe the subjugation of women transcends economics, and I can lay out the historical case, but do we really doubt that fact? In every religion, history is on my side, when it comes to oppressing women -- some religions more than others.
In talking to me, Muslim women go back to one time in history -- the time of Muhammad. This was a "golden age" for Muslim women and I don't doubt it. This is the proof that Islam is not oppressive to women, and the rest is -- well, actually these women say some very negative and aggressive things about the past two thousand years for however many. It's 10:47 pm and I'm not in the mood to get a history critique about the exact years.
I don't believe the conditions of women in Islam since then are the fault of America or colonialism -- not that I am defending either. I agree completely with you that colonialism, politics, oil, poverty -- what have I forgotten -- all play a role in the current conversation. Do I believe that fundamentalism -- in whatever religion it is expressed -- subjugates women? Yes. I've said that several times.
Nor am I focused on Muslim women. I hope I made it clear that I believe the oppression of women transcends religion, nationality, and century.
I don't believe that I am the one setting Nayyach "off" -- but of course, I will consider your point. I admit that it's difficult to communicate or respond to someone who is throwing verbal bombs at me right and left. Nayyach has arrived at Anne of Carversville with an agenda -- to take me on. I've admitted that I've only half read his communications, because they are so degrading, but especially the second comment, I did read.
In scanning his third comment, I admit that I was surprised to discover that he lives in Sudan. I didn't have a place in my mind reading his earlier comments, but it wasn't Sudan.
I don't have assumptions about him as a Muslim man. I am working with eight Muslim men, as I have written. They support Lubna and welcome me. They came to me actually. So I am not making generalizations about Muslim men, because these Muslim men and many more who have contacted me are "regular guys'. Can I say that and not get in trouble? They do not support the current government in Sudan and they do not support the wave of fundamentalism in Africa and through the Middle East.
Not many Western women have been willing to talk about this topic -- or even interested, and I attracted them, as a potential source of support. I addressed Lubna's case because only the Cheney crowd was defending her. I didn't want Muslims in Sudan to think that only right-wing Republicans who believe in occupying countries around the globe were defending Lubna.
So in trying to respond to one negative call out from many people around the world -- where are the Western women -- I now find myself being called 'fucking stupid' 50 times in one day by another person unhappy that I have come to Lubna's support.
The men I work with have daughters and wives and they are deeply concerned about fundamentalism. So forget the neocolonialism attacks. Your guys came to me, not vice versa. I believe that large numbers of Muslim women would behead me. I'm not trying to save Muslim women. It's not my business.
Back to the Muslim men I work with, with whom I generally communicate better until recently.
They are more concerned about fundamentalism than America being the bad guy and cause of every problem -- not that our hands are not dirty. I've said that about 5-7 times now, but it's not enough. I could say it 500-700, and it's not enough. America is interwoven in the MIddle East, as is colonialism. Is it the sole factor for problems in the Middle East and Lubna being arrested? Not at all. I believe that Islam and the current government in Sudan arrested Lubna, and Lubna believes that, too.
Perhaps I did not properly phrase my comments, but what I meant to convey to Nayyach is a sense of surprise that he most likely endorses the arrest of Lubna. He mentioned early on that many Sudanese support Article 152 and don't agree with Lubna. They believe she should be flogged. I understand this fact.
Just like America you have Republicans and Democrats in Sudan. I am very clear that many Sudanese do not support Lubna Hussein. I am not on their side, and I don't think it's reasonable to think that I should be open-minded to their arguments. If you support Article #152, you need to find an anti-Lubna website. There are many. Those who oppose her took down her Facebook page.
Being the subject of his abusive verbal attacks, it surprised me to consider that I was potentially communicating with a fundamentalist supporter of article 152 in Sudan. When I said "what have you done for Lubna" . . . it was a challenge that he supports #152.
My statement to Nayyach was an acknowledgment that I understand now that he is as likely against Lubna as for her.
This is a "house" that supports Lubna. Period. I expect him to be an honorable man and show his hand. If he is against Lubna -- and no, I don't want to hear 200 years of history -- if he is against Lubna, he has no place here.
I let him rant at me and curse me, because I assumed (bad, I know) that he supported Lubna but wanted to take on the discussion of American imperialism. Because I think that America has transgressed in parts of the Middle East, or created decades ago the very monsters we now want to control, I gave him a space to express his thoughts.
Sahar left another comment during the night that I didn't read. It was something about "so much for free speech, was the only line I saw on the computer." Let her give me the name of ONE newspaper or website that would publish Nayyech as I did, when every other word was abusive to me and Western women generally.
I am so naieve that I didn't understand that most likely, I'm communication with Lubna's enemy, trying to prove that we can communicate cross this cataclysmic divide. In this respect, I am a stupid woman. Just not a fucking stupid woman.
While I always acknowledge the right of opposition and differing points of view, I have no interest in getting into that debate regarding Lubna, here at Anne of Carversville.
Henceforth, comments using excessive profanity or not contributing anything of value to the conversation will be removed. I repeat that the comments of Brother F A are more what I hoped for in leaving an open comments section. He criticizes me but in a respectful manner. I welcome that kind of dialogue and interaction any day.
To Muslim women who find my attitude paternalistic, I have absolutely no interest in 'saving you'. None. I respect Lubna Hussein; that is all. You are fully capable of handling your own affairs, based on my observations and your clear demonstration of the fact that you are in control of your lives.
I'll focus on raising money for microloans for women of every reigion who don't find the funds tainted somehow, that they have been touched by the hands of an American woman. This is a perfect accommodation for both of us. Good night. Anne
amended by Anne on Sat. morning
I was hoping to make the one off comment and forget about your blog, but you keep pulling me with your ... logic.
How bizarre that you would keep Nayyach's comment in all its glory but would choose to remove Sahar's comments ! How utterly bizarre ! How would her opinion of your person or blog entries be more offensive and deserving of removal than Nayyach's ? but it's blog so whatever.
Having read the book "infidel" and having actually lived and discussed this very issue (women, women's rights, the roll of men and women in islam etc...) with many muslim men and women over abunch of counties and languages. I can tell you that the image Hirsi Megan is trying to project of Muslim women's self image or Muslim men's broadcasting of that image or Islam's very attitude on women is false, hateful and obfuscated. She narrates her life experiences of war zones, dick heads and bad decisions to make claims that pander to feminists world wide (you included).
You mentioned "These very intelligent, niqab-wearing women stressed that they had to be modest, so as not to "tempt men"." the difference between niqab and hijab is a difference of opinion within islam, and the reason for this is a sign of modesty, and I agree with you that female form and sensuality is very beautiful and worthy of appreciation, and it's never claimed or argued that it should be denigrated or demonized. The only thing is that it's to be appreicated and enjoyed (by those women) but not in the way you propose. This is a belief held by Muslims and it's not up to you to dictate how women should use their bodies. because at the end of the day it's the woman's choice.
Alot of the stories told in Infidel were told for shock value, yes the genetial mutilation descriptions were gory and I was disturbed by it, but this isn't an islamic tradition, which is why it's done mostly in Africa and by more non muslim africans than by Muslim Africans.
Most of your arguments make sense to you because as a feminist you have a certain mindset and an image of the world as it should be. So when you're talking about America accommodating relegious beliefs about human bodies, you should go check your own beliefs. When a muslim seeks to change anything in his or her environment in peaceful means, this is the essence of democracy, and does not touch in the least on the aim of changing America's leadership to a religious one. Also to claim it as "our choice" you've inadvertently defined yourself as "us" and other american women who share different beliefs as "them" even though you should have the same rights and identity.
BTW I don't know what the hel you're talking about when you say date erotica, and I'm afraid to ask lest it should be something offensive to me.
___A Muslim man was standing at the top of the stairway to the subway, handing out free newspapers. I said "no thanks". My friend took the paper. The man shouted to us, as we descended the stairs: "You better leave your girlfriend with me for a few days. I think she needs to spend time in the mosque where she learns to dress properly."_____
this is ONE MAN, ONE STORY, so it means nothing at all, because in arab countries and even in Australia sometimes an ignorant muslim will tell one story that happened to him and try through that to conclude that The west is anti islamic. which I know it's not, at the end of the day one overzealous rude dude in central park does not speak for muslim men world wide. It was Central Park, right ?
I'm going to make a carpet statement now I hope you forgive me. You feminists are like magicians, you draw our eyes to your beautiful ornate ring while your other hand pulls a card from a sleeve. You're saying that the system in Sudan is run by corrupt individuals who ask for sex when arresting women, you're providing statistics about the number of women arrested and opressed. but you're not LOOKING or you're selectively holding back the FULL statistical analysis of this country, there are probably hundreds of thousands of wrongful arrests and some sort of bribes in monetary or sexual terms from men and women, it's a corrupt third world country, what do you expect ? why is violence against women more worthy of mention than violence against men or children or the elderly ? this point has been brought forward before but you seem to dodge it every time with more stories and statistics.
___Nayyach has arrived at Anne of Carversville with an agenda -- to take me on____
You should understand that your blog entries seem very ill informed and hypocritical and this is why you're getting so many people criticizing and commenting. It's not because Nayyach is a fundamentalist, he's not, and he's not Sudani either, I think you took one of his comments too seriously.
You've made an assumption in this entry that I feel I should comment on: That Fundamentalism is spreading in the middle east, what's spreading is not fundamentalism but islamist activism. These are manifested politically in some countries such as Egypt, Iraq, Morocco etc.. and militarily in other countries, the reason for the military campaigns is because the western backed arab regimes go to great lengths to suppress the people they're ruling (At the same time these rulers are living in unimaginable luxury from their country's wealth while thier countrymen starve) . If this suppression had not taken place, these countries would have evolved into wealthy peaceful nations, because they people would have had the freedom to air their concerns. to decide their fates, and to live proudly rather than having to cheat and steal and sell their honor just to survive. To continuously bring up the term "fundamentalism" as a strange illogical cancer affecting the muslim world is unfair and I suspect does not help your case with muslim intellectuals.
___I am so naieve that I didn't understand that most likely, I'm communication with Lubna's enemy, trying to prove that we can communicate cross this cataclysmic divide. In this respect, ___
In this argument there are no enemries, the essential arguemnt is that you're fighting for this Lubna lady while he's arguing that it's alot worse than one lady. it's a whole country. it's a whole region.
Finally I'd suggest that you restore Sahar's comments to maintenance the credibility of your blog.
peace
I'll be happy to restore Sahar's comments at your urging. I don't know how and just looked and it's not in the trash. I will ask the system admin if there's a way to restore it. There should be, but I don't know how. IThere were no comments there in the trash. If Sahar wants to resubmit them, she's welcome to do so and I will post them without comment.
Your points are well taken. Our difference in point of view is the one I cited several times. Your point is that the problem is economic. I believe that the 'state', men, and patriarchal cultures are predisposed to control women, especially their sexuality.
As to why I don't care about men and children, you've spent no real time on A of C. Just this week, I posted in another part of the website:
'The Places We Live': Four Monumental Slums Typify 'Home for More Than One Billion People:
http://www.anneofcarversville.com/annes-cultural-creatives-blog/2009/9/1/the-places-we-live-four-monumental-slums-typify-home-for-mor.html
I call the photographer's website one of the finest productions I've seen online. "If you're unmoved . . . what can I say . . . ".
This website is full of references and attempts to raise global consciousness -- especially among self-absorbed Americans -- about global poverty. I believe the world is in a catastrophic situation on multiple levels. I don't know how people can live in such squalor and retain any sense of humanity. And yet they do, which says a lot about the human spirit.
My sense is that nothing I've written or tried to convey is 'right action' in the playbook of the people who have commented. But the overall tremendous growth of the website indicates that I have an audience.
I agree with everything you say about corrupt governments and everyone suffering. I agree with what you did or didn't say about imperialist powers.
What I don't agree with is the idea that women's rights isn't its own issue. I do believe that women suffer more greatly. In a recent study coming out of Egypt, produced by Egyptians -- I can't tell you about their credentials -- they documented the fact that Egyptian women are being attacked and molested on the streets regularly. The study said that the problem has become much worse, as unemployment rises among Egyptian men. I believe that the report argues that we must have a holistic understanding of the problem -- as I believe you argue. But it also says that young Egyptian men must have a sense of authority somehow, so without a job they become more aggressive with women.
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1909361,00.html
I believe this situation is replayed constantly, that women are suffering even more now, because the men must feel some kind of dignity -- which translates to even more authority over women.
Perhaps you think that's all poppycock. Perhaps not.
When you speak of statistics, there is a good reason why Muhummad Yunus's Grameen Fund lends money to women and not men. The Nobel prize economist and builder of the the incredibly encouraging micro-loan program is fighting poverty on a gender-specific strategy.
In the International Women's Rights channel and in the case of Lubna Hussein, I support her. As I wrote previously, this issue is about 2% of my traffic. There's far more attention on global poverty, the environment, changing American values to a more global focus and away from the idea that s(he) who has the most toys wins.
I don't have a lot of negative comments on this post. Four people have communicated, you being one of them. The fact remains that of the four people commenting, you are the only one interested in 'talking'.
If your point is that I have an obligation to let people say what they wish, curse, tell me I'm stupid, etc. then I defer to you, only as a gesture of goodwill.
I honestly must focus on maintaining the rest of the website. Peace. Anne
I cannot restore Sahar's comments. I invite her to resubmit them and they will be posted. We will move to a moderated-comment function.
Comments containing profanity will not be approved. Nor will comments that focus exclusively on my character or personality. Non-profane, issue-focused comments will be posted. Thanks. Anne
Message to Squarespace admin:
I have a question.
Two questions on comments?
1) Is it true that there is no way for me to approve comments, unless they are anonymous? The references permit moderated approval, but we can't find any way to have moderated comments.
2) I deleted two comments I want to restore. I don't see them in the "recover deleted items", in Architecture. Can they be restored. They were deleted last night and this morning.
Thanks, Anne
by Anne on Saturday, September 5 2009 at 11:45 AM
Response from system administrator:
Hi Anne,
1. You can enable comment moderation within the journal configuration menu:
http://manual.squarespace.com/website-structure/reconfiguring-a-page-widget-or-section.html
under:
Commenting/Permission Options
2. Unfortunately, it's not possible to recover deleted comments.
Hope this helps/clarifies :)
by Stephen Parker (Administrator) on Saturday, September 5 2009 at 12:38 PM
:D thanks for trying, you didn't need to post up your convos with the admin, I believed you when you said it first time
You're welcome. As I said, if Sahar resubmits the two comments, I will post. Peace. Anne
Nayyach and I are in communication privately. He has written me a very human email and I have responded in kind. There is no rancor or animosity between us. After I have read his thoughts again, giving them the attention they deserve, we will decide how much of our conversations to post publicly vs privately.
I have always believed that Nayyach and I could get to this point of positive communication. We have both suffered considerably in the last few days over our public digital exchange.
To the extent that our progress with each other sets an example of positive action, I want to share it with readers. But I want to hear his thoughts, too, so that the decision is ours, regarding what is posted for public consumption.
Some of the matters I've discussed here are very painful to me, especially in a forum that's generally not sympathetic to honest conversations. I'm certain that Nayyach feels equally frustrated with the "comments" medium at times.
I want anyone who reads this "unusual" digital dialogue between two strangers to know that the silence actually symbolizes a good situation, not hatred or a total communication breakdown.
I also wish to thank Brother FA who I believe contributed significantly to a positive resolution to this situation, by humanizing both Nayyach and myself.
Peace. Anne
Good to hear, you should probably ask him to change his name to someone more.... amicable
Hi Anne,
It's me, the new me. I think you should publish our conversations especially ur last email so I can reply, in benefit of ur readers as you put it.
My offer in my last email will not expire in the foreseable future, having said that, I do work in a very aggressive line of work and will be straight up and to the point, (dont' worry, without swearing at you) but sometimes I will feel to across a point is more important than being sensitive to feelings. I will try my best though, I give you that.
This time, will have to stick to the point, and not go off on tangents, and I will address everything you put out there. I will know within the first reply if we can take this further or not, because I will know if we are building on our conversation or just going back and forth without listening to LOGIC!
Thank you Anne,
This is the New Noah who used to be the old Nayyach el Amreekan.
To readers of this thread. I cannot change the timing sequence of the comment communication string, so I will copy and paste Noah's earlier comment message to me, so that it follows this one. I honestly don't know what's going on here, but I'm giving our conversation a genuine attempt.
I'm such a transparent person that name changes 'throw me" -- especially such a dramatic one as this. I've learned lessons in my life and understanding that the universe unfolds in strange ways is one of them.
One of the five most important days of my life evolved from what I thought would be one of the worst. I was in Thailand on business. Driving into the darkness an hour out of Chiang Mai, down a totally dark road with a man who made me very uncomfortable, I considered saying a Hail Mary or two.
Blackberrys weren't invented yet. I hadn't told my US office where I was going and with whom. My male colleague who was traveling with me returned to Bangkok, rather than join us for dinner at the home of a Thai media "giant". I was very upset with him for arranging the dinner and not telling me that I would be traveling alone. In a rare moment for me, I had already confided that I did not like this man and I didn't trust him. This may be one of three times in my life, when I made such a statement to a friend or colleague about another person. This man gave me the creeps.
I was so distressed that night, that I considered jumping out of the car -- an absurd idea in the middle of the Golden Triangle. When this man turned the Jeep Cherokee down a long lane into total darkness, I said to myself "that's it." I kept talking, but inside I thought I had met my waterloo for sure.
When I saw a red Lotus sitting in a circular driveway at the end of the dark lane, I collapsed with relief. The rest of my night was a profound experience, complete with my private 30 minutes spent with about 1000 flickering white votive candles and a 10 ft. golden Buddha. I "got lost" on the way to the bathroom, as my hosts knew I would.
Btw, it was a modest house by "media giant" standards. Except for the red Lotus, there was nothing ostentatious in the household. The man and his wife dismissed the help and he cooked dinner for us. I was sitting on a stool in his kitchen, talking as if we had known each other for years.
Since that night -- and also when I went parasailing -- I've tried to conquer my fears of the unknown and meet it head-on. Returning to this conversation with Noah is an example of that attitude.
I will do very little editing of the correspondence between Noah and myself.
I do reference my mother, and I am comfortable doing that. She is alive but has no computer, Internet or email. My nieces and nephews or my brothers will not tell her of this document, should they find it. I am a role model to one of my neices, so if she is a clever young woman, she'll get here. I do not intend to publicize this thread in any way.
I don't see how the initial threads of this conversation can stay with the website next year, when A of C travels onto AT&T, Verizon & Telemundo in a web TV deal. But I'll worry about the profanity and aggression on another day.
Presently I stand by the reality of what has happened here, and I'll get advice on what to do, when we see if the exchange is worth preserving. I do regard Noah's and my dialogue as starting from here. Truthfully, I never read about 60% of what he wrote earlier. I have not returned at all to the comments this week.
I am concerned not to embarrass my one brother, who leads a far more noble life than I do. If there is such a person as the "perfect man", it is one of my brothers, and I do not want my Internet explorations to impact him negatively. I must change a couple private references that indirectly drag him into this conversation, in a way that's not fair to his own right to privacy.
Beyond that, I will engage in this digital crap shoot and see where it leads us. Thank you, Noah for your "transformation". Anne
Hello Anne,
When I read that you had been raped as a young girl, I had a splitting head ache and could not sleep for the whole night! I felt incredibly guilty, really sorry and very bad for you. I felt that way for how I spoke to you and how I expressed a lot of aggression and anger against you.
I would like to apologize for all that, and would sincerely hope that you would find it in your woman's merciful heart to forgive my every aggressive word against you. For I do believe most women have more tender and merciful hearts than men.
I think you are a victim Anne. I think the sort of experience you went through has been a primary factor in shaping your life's decisions the sort of people you attract and attract you. I don't know what I would do if someone did that to my daughter??? I just don't know what I would do to them. This sort of thing doesn't go away and healing is never complete. I believe I can help you Anne. I offer to reveal everything about myself and invite you to meet with me and stay in my house and with my family. It will be my pleasure. I could sense in your writings some irregularities in feelings and words and thought it to be a form of child abuse which a large majority of people go through in varying degrees, but I must say I didn't think it was rape and at such a young age. I think I can help you find peace. The kind of peace that kings will fight and consume all what they have for a little glimpse of it. The inner most true and sincere feeling in the world where you feel you are at oneness with something so much bigger than you, us with the universe. When you are alone in the deepest part of the night and you feel your ever atom of your body is so energetically warm yet standing still, in total calmness and serenity so much so that your soul, the immaterial being, can not but shed a tear and you will feel it's all okay and like you have finally found what you have always been looking for. Peace.
I have a couple of questions for you which you may or may not like to answer.
I want to know if you have kids and if you get along with them well.
Secondly I am interested to know if you believe this person who did this to you deserves to be punished, and if so what do you believe their punishment should be? This is a really important question for me to know especially from your having to go and live post this experience.
Anyway Anne, It's late and I am not sure if I am going to regret what I have written in the morning, but I also want to clarify that I am not a Sudanese and my mother is not an oxford educated woman. And you can call me from now on : Noah.
Good night!